Everything Science Forum

By NATALIE OBIKO PEARSON, Associated Press Writer, June 15, 2005
 
TOKYO - Japan and France are jointly developing a new supersonic passenger plane to succeed the retired Concorde, but with up to three times as many seats and the potential to fly the Tokyo-to-New York route in six hours, officials and reports said Wednesday.

Defense contractors and engineering companies from the two countries are expected to split an annual investment of about 200 million yen ($1.84 million) for research over the next three years to build the faster-than-sound plane, Japan's Trade Ministry said in a statement. The agreement was signed at the Paris Air Show Tuesday.

The Japanese companies will include Japan Aircraft Development Corp., a non-profit consortium, government's space agency Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries Ltd., Kawasaki Heavy Industries Ltd., Fuji Heavy Industries Ltd. and Ishikawajima- Harima Heavy Industries Co. Details on French participants were not available.

The cooperation opens the possibility of reducing by half the flight time between New York and Tokyo to six hours on an aircraft with 300 seats — three times the capacity of the Concorde, according to media reports and officials Wednesday.

Amid intensifying global competition for dominance in next-generation planes, "Japan has won itself a major role in the push toward aerospace development," the Mainichi newspaper said in an analysis. But it added that doubts remain whether Japan has the technology to make a supersonic jet commercially viable.

"Japan has taken on both an opportunity and a major risk," it said.

The trade ministry said the two sides will try to resolve the difficulties that plagued the Concorde, including jet-engine noise and high fuel consumption.

Japan has successfully tested an engine that can theoretically reach speeds of up to mach 5.5, or more than five times the speed of sound, the ministry said.

It offers this technological know-how as well as its research in engines and energy conservation, the ministry said.

The French side brings experience from the Concorde, the world's first and only supersonic commercial jet operated by Air France and British Airways, which flew at twice the speed of sound.

"This is truly significant industrial cooperation," Japanese Trade Minister Shoichi Nakagawa said in the statement. "Bringing their respective advantages together ... should lead to the ability to offer highly advanced aircraft and services in the future."

The Concorde first flew in 1969 and became a symbol of French and European industrial acumen. But the planes were retired from commercial service in October 2003, never having recouped the billions of tax dollars invested in them.

The Concorde exploded in flames after takeoff from Charles de Gaulle airport near Paris on July 25, 2000, and slammed into a hotel. The accident, which killed the 109 people on board, presaged an end to the career of the sleek but costly supersonic aircraft.

Japan has been working since 2002 to develop a 250-seater supersonic jet capable of flying at mach 1.6, but the partnership with France would help raise those ambitions, a Japan Aircraft Development Corporation official said.

Officials hope to have the new jet in operation by 2015, flying up to 2.4 times the speed of sound, the Mainichi said.

This week's agreement could also signal closer cooperation with the European airline industry in a country that has long favored working with the Americans.

"To research closely in this area with the Europeans does represent something new," said Yoshio Watanabe, an official with The Society of Japanese Aerospace Companies, which is heading the new initiative on the Japanese side.

from Yahoo.com (url=Defense contractors and engineering companies from the two countries are expected to split an annual investment of about 200 million yen ($1.84 million) for research over the next three years to build the faster-than-sound plane, Japan's Trade Ministry said in a statement. The agreement was signed at the Paris Air Show Tuesday.

The Japanese companies will include Japan Aircraft Development Corp., a non-profit consortium, government's space agency Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries Ltd., Kawasaki Heavy Industries Ltd., Fuji Heavy Industries Ltd. and Ishikawajima- Harima Heavy Industries Co. Details on French participants were not available.

The cooperation opens the possibility of reducing by half the flight time between New York and Tokyo to six hours on an aircraft with 300 seats — three times the capacity of the Concorde, according to media reports and officials Wednesday.

Amid intensifying global competition for dominance in next-generation planes, "Japan has won itself a major role in the push toward aerospace development," the Mainichi newspaper said in an analysis. But it added that doubts remain whether Japan has the technology to make a supersonic jet commercially viable.

"Japan has taken on both an opportunity and a major risk," it said.

The trade ministry said the two sides will try to resolve the difficulties that plagued the Concorde, including jet-engine noise and high fuel consumption.

Japan has successfully tested an engine that can theoretically reach speeds of up to mach 5.5, or more than five times the speed of sound, the ministry said.

It offers this technological know-how as well as its research in engines and energy conservation, the ministry said.

The French side brings experience from the Concorde, the world's first and only supersonic commercial jet operated by Air France and British Airways, which flew at twice the speed of sound.

"This is truly significant industrial cooperation," Japanese Trade Minister Shoichi Nakagawa said in the statement. "Bringing their respective advantages together ... should lead to the ability to offer highly advanced aircraft and services in the future."

The Concorde first flew in 1969 and became a symbol of French and European industrial acumen. But the planes were retired from commercial service in October 2003, never having recouped the billions of tax dollars invested in them.

The Concorde exploded in flames after takeoff from Charles de Gaulle airport near Paris on July 25, 2000, and slammed into a hotel. The accident, which killed the 109 people on board, presaged an end to the career of the sleek but costly supersonic aircraft.

Japan has been working since 2002 to develop a 250-seater supersonic jet capable of flying at mach 1.6, but the partnership with France would help raise those ambitions, a Japan Aircraft Development Corporation official said.

Officials hope to have the new jet in operation by 2015, flying up to 2.4 times the speed of sound, the Mainichi said.

This week's agreement could also signal closer cooperation with the European airline industry in a country that has long favored working with the Americans.

"To research closely in this area with the Europeans does represent something new," said Yoshio Watanabe, an official with The Society of Japanese Aerospace Companies, which is heading the new initiative on the Japanese side.

from Yahoo.com - Japan, France to Jointly Develop New Jet  (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050615/ap_on_bi_ge/japan_france_supersonic_jet)

Japanese Supersonic Test Flight a Success (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051010/ap_on_sc/supersonic_jet)

SYDNEY, Australia - Japan's space agency on Monday completed the first successful test of a prototype jet that can fly at twice the speed of sound, three years after an earlier test ended in a fiery wreck in the Australian Outback, an official said.

Kenichi Saito, a spokesman for the Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency, or JAXA, said Monday's unmanned test flight went "as planned."

"Everything was very good and the aircraft landed ... normally," Saito said in a telephone interview. "We are going to conduct the (data) analysis, but currently we think this flight was a success."

A breakthrough in supersonic flight could help Japan leap ahead in the aerospace field. The country, which manufactures high-tech components for U.S.-based Boeing Co., has only a limited domestic airplane industry.

Saito said the prototype 38-foot-long, arrow-shaped craft, developed by Mitsubishi Heavy Industries Ltd., was launched on a rocket and reached a flying altitude of 11 miles before floating back to Earth by parachute.

The test follows a three-year hiatus after the first experimental flight of the unmanned aircraft separated prematurely from its booster rocket and crashed into the desert.

Monday's $10 million experiment marked a crucial step in Japan's plans to develop a larger supersonic aircraft that can carry 300 passengers between Tokyo and Los Angeles in about four hours.

It also underpinned a June agreement between Japan and France to jointly research a possible successor to the Concorde over the next three years.

The Concorde first flew in 1969 and became a symbol of French and European industrial prowess. In July 2000, a Concorde crashed in flames after takeoff from Charles de Gaulle airport near Paris, killing 109 people. The sleek but costly planes were retired from commercial service in 2003, never having recouped the billions of tax dollars invested in them.

Japan hopes to have a successor making regular flights by around 2025, Saito said.

Japan to Talk With NASA on Supersonic Jet  (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060508/ap_on_sc/japan_supersonic_jet)
Associated Press May 8, 2006

TOKYO - Stung by repeated setbacks, Japan's space agency plans to start talks next month with NASA about jointly developing a supersonic successor to the retired Concorde, an official said Monday.

Japan is trying to leapfrog ahead in the aerospace field with a plan to build a next-generation airliner that can fly between Tokyo and Los Angeles in about three hours. But a string of glitches, including a nose cone problem during the latest test flight in March, has led the Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency to look for an international partner.

"In the future, we think we need some kind of cooperation with NASA," JAXA spokesman Kiyotaka Yashiro said. "Every developed country is doing some kind of research, the U.S., Europe and Russia. International cooperation is essential."

Japanese researchers and engineers plan to meet counterparts from the U.S. space agency next month to discuss possible cooperation, Yashiro said, calling the June meeting a "first step."

Yashiro's comments came in response to a Japanese newspaper report that said JAXA would ally with NASA and the U.S.-based aerospace giant Boeing Co. on the next stage of development. Japan is expected to develop the engine, which would generate 1 percent of the noise of the Concorde, while Boeing builds the airframe, the Nihon Keizai newspaper said.

Having flown the New York to Tokyo route on occasion before, I can say that it is a grueling experience to be in a coach seat for the 13-14 hrs it takes to get between the cities. It would be wonderful to see that cut down to six hours, even with the added time dislocation. I think just being in the aircraft for less time would help matters greatly.

Still I have my doubts whether such an aircraft would ever be commercially viable. Supersonic flight so drastically increases fuel consumption per passenger mile, and there's little way around that, given the laws of physics. The airlines are strapped as they are trying to cut costs. As it is fuel cost during times such as these become a real threat to the viability of commercial carriers. The Concorde was introduced during a time of heavy airline regulation, with a pretty much guaranteed operating profit margin. It's disastrous economics (admittedly also related to its small passenger capacity) prevented it from coming into greater use by the airlines. With the economic environment for commercial flight far bleaker today than forty years ago, I can't imagine any airline being enthusiastic about introducing supersonic airliners to their fleets for the foreseeable future.

As a further note, I haven't heard anything about supersonic flight being allowed over populated land, given the intractability of the sonic boom-shock wave problem. That part has always diminished its commercial potential. Still one can dream-New York to Los Angeles in 3 hours-how many jet-setters would take advantage of that?

I have heard a lot of skepticism, and the likelihood that the goal of 1% of the noise of Concorde is incorrect (an editorial error).

Concorde was allowed to land at JFK which is in a pretty populated area.  I saw it myself several times both for British Air and Air France.  I thought Concorde also flew to Dulles airport near Washington.  It was loud.  The aircraft woud not go supersonic until it got out over the ocean.

I have flown several times NY to Tokyo, and once from SF to Tokyo/Osaka, fortunately Business Class, and even with that it was uncomfortable.

Personally, I'd like to fly LA to NZ or Australia, or even NY to NZ or Australia - and for less than $1000.  ;D

An article from a German site on the French-Japanese supersonic airliner project:

http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,363823,00.html

Observers are skeptical of the French-Japanese project's chances for success. "It will be very difficult to hold down costs with the technologies that are available," Franke warns. To make the jet efficient, developers must overcome two hurdles. Firstly, because of the amount of fuel it takes to reach and exceed the speed of sound, the plane would have to fly much faster than Mach 1 to make it worth it. And secondly, the plane would have to accommodate many more passengers than the Concorde in order to make ticket prices cheaper and to increase occupancy.

I'm still trying to get a handle on supersonic fuel consumption. It seems that overall operating efficiency starts rising with speed once you get well past the sound barrier. One factor is that the plane can get more utilization by making more trips in a shorter period of time. But I'd still like to know exactly what happens to fuel consumption per passenger-mile at super- or hypersonic speeds.

Although the trip requires less time, the rate of fuel consumption should increase, because the resistance to forward motion increases - usually something on the order of vⁿ, where n > 1, and perhaps something like n ~ 2.  On the other hand, if they fly up at 65,000 ft (or 20 km), then perhaps the air resistance is not so great.

I didn't hear about it.
Seems interesting but Airbus Industries are heavily involved (and deep into s***) with the A-380 super jumbo (planification problems though, not technicals fortunately).

As for fuel consumption at high speed, someone to consider applying the same wing system as for the XB-70 Valkyrie? It seems its goal was precisely that: fly very fast and for a long time.