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Author Topic: Equipment Basics - The Telrad and other reflex finders  (Read 2635 times)
skyjim
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« on: July 31, 2001, 03:11:00 PM »

Guys, I've stuck this up top because I think it will be a good thing to have a set of "Equipment Basics" threads up top, especially for beginners. I'm certainly prepared to modify the idea if the users of the section don't like it.      

 Jim




I'm starting this thread to share the joys of reflex finders with those who have never used them, and to get feedback from observers using various types.  I was about to flood a reply to Snazee1 with all of this, but decided to move it to it's own thread, as this is a subject we can expect to refer novice observers to in the future on this board.

  For years, I've used a Telrad finder on many of my telescopes, and have found it to be a wonderful tool for visual astronomy.  I've also used various other "reflex" finders.  These are nonmagnifying, zero power displays which act like a modern aircraft "heads-up" display.  You look at the real sky with both eyes open, but position your head so that one eye is behind the projection glass of the finder.   What you will see in the case of the Telrad is three focused concentric red circles which appear to float against the sky.




 The circles subtend angles of four degrees, two degrees, and one-half of a degree.  Brightness is adjustable for varying conditions, and can be coaxed from an almost invisible glow to a level bright enough for use in twilight.  Here is a link to an obviously enthusiastic Telrad user with a nice image:

www.monmouth.com/~govega/telrad.htm

   Also, here is a description of the development of the Telrad by the late Steve Kufeld, a southern California amateur astronomer:

www.company7.com/telrad/

  The Telrad has become so popular that there are a slew of other reflex finders now available.  The only real weakness of the original Telrad is the weight - about 11 ounces with batteries.  On smaller Dobsonians with critical balance, this can require counterweights.  The Rigel Quik Point is one of the better imitators - it is lighter than the Telrad (less than 1/4 the mass) but still retains a concentric circle reticle, which I feel is very helpful for observers just learning to starhop and estimate angular separations in the sky.  The circles on the Quik Finder, however, are equivalent to just the inner two circles of the Telrad reticle - two degrees and 1/2 degree.  This very slightly complicates  using one of the popular Telrad "finder chart" books for Quik Finder users.

Here's a picture and description of the Quik Finder:

hardinoptical.com/quikfinder.html

  The other very common variation is a red dot finder like the Orion  EZ Finder, the Televue Qwik Point, and the Celestron Star Pointer.  These all seem to come from the same manufacturer, and show a red dot in a fairly tiny (less than 1/2" diameter) hooded projection lens.  They have the advantages of light weight, low cost, and are bright enough for use in daylight, but don't give any sense of angular size.

  The one exception to these comments in the realm of red dot finders is the very elegant, very pricey Televue Star Beam.  The Star Beam's optics yield a precise 10 arc minute (about a third of a full moon) translucent red dot with variable brightness.  Star Beam's large lens makes it very easy to find correct eye position, and it looks perfectly at home on an expensive refractor.  Here's a link to Televue's description of both the Star Beam and the Qwik Finder:

www201.pair.com/resource/astro.html/regular/products/tele-vue-optics/qwik-point.htm

   I used a Qwik Point on my Televue Genesis Sdf refractor when I first purchased it, but it just looked too clunky on that gorgeous tube, and was a pain to use compared to my trusty Telrads.  A Telrad would've been even worse aesthetically - that plastic box is a little clunky looking on a sleek refractor.  So I swallowed hard and spent over $120.00 on the Star Beam, based on my faith in Al Nagler.  Winner!  The Star Beam is an absolute joy to use, although I still use my Telrads on other scopes.  I feel the Telrad bullseye reticle is much more useful for beginners.

   And, yes, I still also use conventional finder scopes, but I rough slew with a reflex finder first if I don't know the position well enough to get it in the field with the reflex.  

  It's pretty cool to get good with a Telrad.  A friend will be having trouble finding an object, and asks if you know the starhop.  You walk up, glance at the Telrad, move the scope, and then, if you're feeling cocky, not bother to look in the eyepiece and just say "OK - check the eyepiece now."   When they look in the eyepiece and the object is there, just casually saunter off, looking like a wizard......

   Anyway, having babbled on this long about reflex finders, I'd like to solicit comments and experiences in the use of these devices from fellow amateur astronomers.

Clear Skies!

Jim
davidf01
Guest
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2001, 11:04:00 PM »

I've never used one, but they seem very good to use. However, I always imagined that a telrad would be more useful under good skies than in light polluted conditions. Have you found this to be so?

If there's a blanket of stars, I would think you could point fairly precisely with a 0-power finder. But where I live, the guidepost stars can be few and far between, so I'm not sure that a 0-power finder would be adequate. For example, to find M3 I have to scan around between Arcturus and Alpha Canes Venatici, a 25-degree swath of sky with virtually NO stars visible to the naked eye (under my conditions). I guess you have to ball-park it with the telrad then dig around with the finder, just as you say.
skyjim
Guest
« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2001, 01:08:00 AM »

I had nothing but my Telrad for a finder on my 18 inch for 12 years!

  You just seem to develop a sense of angular size through using it, and look at the chart, then visualize the relationship of the reticle's circles with whatever stars you're using for hopping.  Overlays are available which match the angular size of the Telrad reticle to the scale of several popular sky atlases.


I've done that M3 hop for years under polluted skies by running a line from Cor Caroli (Alpha Cv) to Arcturus, then running about 60% of the way down, then offsetting about 1 1/2 degrees or so west.  I don't recall the exact amount of offset; I've done it so many times that I just swing the scope to the position I know is the right one - I usually get it in the low power field of the 18" with a 35mm Panoptic; if it isn't in the field, I'm virtually always within a field diameter, so I don't have to slew around much to find M3.  I believe that having a telrad has made me a much better starhopper, and hops like this are almost automatic.  If you've ever done any target shooting, it's like getting a good sight picture - everything just looks right.

Jim
 
davidf01
Guest
« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2001, 12:39:00 PM »

How do they affix to your scope? Do they use the same 2 screws as your finderscope? If you want to use both, is there a means of doing this? Is there something like a ring mount for the reflex finder that fits around your tube?

How often do you need to change the batteries, e.g. in cold weather (Yup, I know you're in S. Cal.)?

Also, a more fundamental question about how they work: How do they avoid a "parallax effect", whereby the position of the finder against the background stars would vary as you move your head one way or the other?
clifdweller
Guest
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2001, 12:41:00 AM »

Sort of off subject,but does anyone have one those green laser pointers?What do you think of them.There kind of pricey.
skyjim
Guest
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2001, 12:59:00 AM »

Clifdweller - sorry, but I not only don't have one, I haven't really been around them in use.  A guy had one at Mt. Pinos recently , but I was doing that newspaper thing and didn't have a chance to pay much attention to it.


David - Not sure how to explain this, but parallax doesn't seem to be an issue of any significance - they've evidentally got the optics set up so that if you can see the reticle, your eye is close enough to correct position to render parallax a nonissue.  I confess that I am not sure why this is so.  I remember wondering about parallax the first time I saw a Telrad in 1985 - then promptly quit thinking about it once I used it, too busy exclaiming "This is the best thing since sliced bread!" over and over.

  It may simply be that since you're shooting for an accuracy on the order of a quarter degree or so, whatever parallax is inherent is far enough below this value to become background noise. One does commonly find the object, but not precisely centered in the field.  Whether this is due to parallax, imprecise alignment of the Telrad with the optical axis of the scope, careless sighting, or some other factor is up for grabs.

I usually have Telrad batteries last about a year, observing at 8300 ft ASL once a month (around 35 - 40 degree F average, much colder in winter) and two or three partial nights a month in moderate temperatures, say 55 degrees F, at public star parties.  I always get away at least a couple of times with leaving the Telrad on when I put it away, and not discovering the error until I clean equipment the next day.

Jim
davidf01
Guest
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2001, 10:05:00 AM »

What about mounting it on the tube? If you want to keep your finderscope, is there some kind of ring mount or other bracket that allows you to mount the reflex finder on the tube?

What would you recommend for a small scope, where I would want (ideally) light weight and low cost? It sounds like the Telrad might be too heavy for a light 4.5" Catadioptric... Would I be better off with a red dot finder like you mention above (the Orion EZ Finder, the Televue Qwik Point, or the Celestron Star Pointer)?

skyjim
Guest
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2001, 02:56:00 PM »

David,

         On larger tubes, you just use the doubleback tape for surface mounting; on my dobs, I've used the screwholes and bolted the baseplate on.  

   I think you're right - on a small cat, you need to use something else.  I like the Quik Finder because of the rings in the reticle, but the other three are much lower.  I'd grab whichever one you can get the best price of the three on if the Quik Finder is too tall for your application.

Jim

Guest
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2002, 04:02:00 PM »

I use the telrad on my sct almost exclusivly since I bought it, the only time I use the finder scope is when I'm taking photos and need to be precisly on the object i'm photographing. Other than that the only flaw I've ever found with the telrad is being unable to see the stars because of light pollution. but I' ve since moved to a dark sky area and no longer have that problem.
snazee1
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I see you!!!


« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2003, 11:52:00 AM »

I got the Orion EZ-finder for my birthday and it is wonderful, I wonder how I got by with out it!!! I really like it cause there is no magnification when you look through so what you see with your naked eye is what you see thru this scope.  And the red dot is amazing, I have found more stuff since I got this than with the powerful finder scope my 10" dob came with!!!!!!! I would highly recommend this!! And yes Jim you were right!!!!!!:D :D
skyjim
Guest
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2003, 12:29:00 PM »

Another zero-power convert!

Jim
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