'Scope for Observing Earth & The Planets - Advice Needed

[archiebald]

I don't actually have a scope now, I did have many years ago but it was neither expensive or good quality.  Just occasionally use binoculars on a tripod if and when something special is happening in the sky.

My daughter is growing up far too fast and I am determined in the next 12 months to look for a scope to help educate her as well as for me to enjoy.

Budget is going to be very limited, but it's not fixed now, just starting my research as of today

I am thinking that for a starting scope, I want to observe the following;
- The Moon
- The Planets
- Terrestrial occasionally (nature, birds, my local volcano etc)

Not interested in deep sky objects right now.

Mobility is a must 'cos the light pollution in the valley I live is horrendous, I need to get it up onto one of the peaks easily in the back of my Subaru Forester (not so roomy).

And, sorry to say it, but I don't think I could ever love a Dobby.  A Newtonian reflector or a schmitt cassegrain (probably way too expensive) would be my favored route but if that's ridiculous, I'm a willing learner.  A good refractor is way out of my league right now.

Any advice on what to look for in terms of focal length, aperture and eyepieces would be mucho appreciated.  I am a specs wearer BTW.

Oh and BTW, if buying second-hand, what are the things to look out for?

STOP PRESS: I know of an unused Meade Schmitt Cassegrain (model unknown) that has been sitting outside under a vinyl cover for a couple of years all through the winter, the rain and the summer heat.  If I think about offering to buy it off the guy, what damage is it most likely to have suffered?  Will try to find the model.

Thanks in advance

[engaaraa]

The main problem with your requirements is that typically a powerfull enough scope to appreciate detail in the planets will not be able to focus comfortably at short distances required to appreciate nature on earth. Ladscapes such as a volcano in the distance yes, but spying on close by birds or animals will not be possible unless they are pretty far away.

It's one thing to focus at infinity and quite another to focus on nearby objects. Color correction and other design features are ussually optimized for one use or the other.

Yet, someone more knowledgeable might know the right scope for you as I'm sure some scope designer must have taken into account such observing needs as yours.

[skyjim]

Hey Archie, could you give a budget range - although prices will undoubtedly vary from U.S. to Japanese market, I'll at least know what rough range to look in.  If you can translate the yen to $ U.S. that would be nice though not essential.  Guess I can look up exchange rates and take a guess.

Vixen of Japan makes some nice small scopes which might fill the bill, although a budget dual-use scope will of necessity not be optimized for either terrestrial or astronomical work.  I'm thinking in terms of a short-tube refractor around 80mm, a currently popular format which can be had from Chinese as well as Japanese manufacturers.  The mount will be a driver on cost - the smallest equatorials are, with a few pricey exceptions from companies like Takahashi, junk.  If you can live with an altazimuth mount, at least at first, that will save money.  

Give me a budget target, and I'll give it a shot.

Jim

[archiebald]

Thanks Jim, I guess it is going an absolute max of JPY50,000~60,000 (about US$450~500 at current rates) and I fully accept that it will be a compromise.  As long as it last me and my little girl 2~3 years of interest than that will be enough.  After that, it'll be either stuffed at the back of the closet or (more hopefully) upgraded to something a bit more doozy.

I'm not in any hurry, any time in the next 6~9 months is probably realistic.

Meade has an importer in Japan, I noted some time ago that they will not direct ship to Japan, must be a commercial agreement with their distributor.  Not sure about other makers.

Any comments on the weathered Meade SC reflector I mentioned?

[skyjim]

Sorry, Arch, I thought I'd edited the first to include this - weird.  Didn't post.

Caution is warranted.  Under a vinyl cover, atmospheric moisture must've condensed on the scope repeatedly, and probably worked into drive mechanisms and the circuitry.  I'm not sure how thoroughly they pot the electronics or do other moisture proofing - my guess is not at all.  Possible corrosion problems, but if everything works, and the price is right this might be acceptable.

The optical tube may not have picked up any contaminants inside if the owner had things at the back end properly capped, but the front corrector plate may well have quite a bit of dust.  Sometimes the factory front caps aren't all that tight.  Check for signs of moisture in the tube interior and work the focuser through the full range of travel, checking for binding or noise.  If you would have to clean the front corrector plate of a significant buildup of dirt or dust, I'd pass.  Scratches from cleaning will scatter light and degrade the image, and there really isn't an easy way to clean a badly contaminated corrector that doesn't involve disassembly and immersion.  This isn't impossible, but the matching of the optical components extends to the radial orientation of the three elements - the primary mirror, secondary mirror, and corrector plate.  If you don't reproduce the orientation, you may amplify figuring errors in the optics.  Tuning at the factory takes advantage of the ability to use unique characteristics of each element to cancel out errors in others, and rotation is used to tune the optics.

I'll work on some other ideas and post later.

[archiebald]

Jim,
I picked up here so I don't mess up the other thread.

As regards Vixen, yes they do market in Japan under the same name.  The link below is for Vixen in English, you'll need Japanese support intalled to go to the Japanese pages.

www.vixen-global.com/

I've been doing a little searching recently and have come up with the following thoughts.

I realize that a short focal length is not so recommendable for planetary stuff but I read that using one with a good quality barlow and appropriate eyepiece may give me enough performance to be going on with.  Can you confirm that?

Despite the cost burden and the howls of dismay from the "real" astronomers, I am tending to gravitate toward a Goto type.  It has been so many years since I did any skymap-reading that I will need all the help I can get.

Co-incidentally, a local home department store (don't groan yet) has started stocking some of the smaller Meade scopes (see, told you!).  The little ETX-70AT was on display and they will order up to the ETX-125EC.  However, I have got to say it, the ETX-70 looked so horribly plasticky that I don't feel any desire to go for it (based on looks alone).  It's enough to put you off Meade altogether, though funnily enough I read some reasonable reviews on it on the net. (except for the focusing knob)

Just this evening, I have been chasing down info on the Celestron NexStar 80, a short tube refractor as you alluded to earlier.  From what I have read so far seems to be a definite possibility.

Should I plan to use the scope for terrestrial viewing, an erecting prism should do what I need, correct?

BTW, does a Mak orientate the image in the same way as a standard refractor?

Other vague possibilities now (although not Goto) are a couple of Orion's, the MIN 80EQ refractor and the MIN90EQ Mak.

What are your views on Celestron and Orion Vs Meade in size / price range I am looking for?

One problem that I have yet to resolve is availability.  Although I mentioned Meades being on sale in Japan, the manual and the Autostar is fully Japanese (which I don't read so well)

No-one wants to ship an English version out of the US it seems, but one possibility is my company has a regional office in Atlanta.  I may ask someone there if they can tranship it privately for me if I eventually buy from Meade / Celestron / Orion.

Just to re-emphasize, I don't think a purchase is going to happen this side of Christmas, but I hope no more than a month or so after.

One final point.  I have read repeatedly that people like me with astigmatism should keep specs on when using a scope otherwise the image is wrecked.  Having previously used a cheapo scope and binoculars without my specs, I was not aware of any major problem.  Just how real is it?

Sorry for all the questions...

[engaaraa]

I'm not saying go with Meade, but you can download the instructions manual in english here

[archiebald]

Thanks engaraa, I had already found that link.  Main problem for a Japanese bought Meade is the Autostar being in Japanese language.  That will be burnt into the ROM so no chance of returning it to English I assume (although I haven't checked so far)

[skyjim]

Since you said you weren't in a hurry. but one of the things slowing me down was lack of familiarity with what your options were in Japan.  Now I see that Orion is a possibility.....

A good friend of mine has one of the Orion StarMax 127 EQ scopes, and he loves it - although the field of view is a tad narrow.  It's a good terrrestrial, planetary, double star, and bright planetary nebula scope.  It's currently about $569 U.S., plus shipping, so it is a tad over budget for you, but it comes on the first tier of equatorial mounts which are of acceptable stability IMO.  Not a go-to, but I must admit that in the price range you want to shoot for, most of the optics in the go-to scopes are pretty mediocre, and ability to point doesn't mean much if you can't see anything worth looking at.  

Don't get me wrong - you'll see the moon, Saturn's rings (albeit a very tiny image) Jupiter and the Galilean moons, and some round clouds which are big globulars plus the Orion nebula and M-31 showing elongation.  Subaru will look nice (as an astronomical gaijin you should know that cluster by it's Japanese name.....) as will some other open clusters.  You will be able to cruise Milky Way star clouds and find lots of fuzzies.  But I admit to being skeptical of the durability of both the mechanicals and the electronics of the go-to scopes at this price point.  The optics IMO aren't up to the job of planetary observing, one of your primary interests.

I think the first go-to class I'd consider is probably peresented by the Meade ETX-90 and the  Celestron Nexstar 4.  This is also where you start to get the types of focal lengths good for planetary observing.  Otherwise, I'd concentrate on good optics in a small package, on a sturdy mount.  Maksutovs like that 127 do well in those departments.  Perhaps you'd even be OK using a small Mak on a sturdy photo tripod rather than an equatorial.  Cheap equatorials are generally terrible devices to live with. I'll see if I can find a lashup that looks workable.

BTW, a maksutov with a 90 degree diagonal will show an upright , but mirrored left-right, image.  A 45 degree prism will give a correct terrestrial image.

Jim

[Qazaq2001]

To Archie and Jim,
  I can vouch for the optical quality of a Meade ETX90 for planetary observing, because I own one. The long focal length of the Meade ETX90 makes it suitable for observing the planets, for example when I first got my ETX90, I trained it on Mars shortly after its June 2001 opposition, and just before the global dust storm kicked in, I was able to see the dark markings quite clearly, especially the pipe shape of Sinus Meridiani (the bowl) and Sinus Sabaeus (the pipe stem), totally awesome, and that was using an 18mm Plossel coupled with a 2x shorty barlow yielding an effective magnification of about 145x. Archie I don't know if Meade telescopes are available in Japan or not, but I highly recommend the ETX90 for its optics and portability. Best Q8) 8)

[archiebald]

Jim, thanks!!

I have been looking around myself and I have to agree that the Orion (U.S.) Starmax 127 is looking more and more attractive.  Nice to hear it confirmed from a reliable source as well!

I have read one or two outstanding reviews on the optics and focusing (considering the price).  Also I found this company that take the Orion, assemble and test it before despatch and the price is no more than elsewhere.  www.company7.com/home.html  (link was down when I posted but I hope it comes online again soon)

Here is their Starmax page www.company7.com/orion/ca...ax127.html

They produce a report of the optics with advice on the best eyepieces.  Looks like excellent service and I am sure I will be ordering from them when the time comes.

Even though it is not a goto, I realized (partly from reading your old posts here) that I am far better off getting good optics for now and spending the money on a couple of good eyepieces.

Heh Heh, I drive a Subaru so I carry the Pleiades around on the grille of my car, it is also my favorite traditional Japanese song!.

As for the budget, hmm, looks like I'll be doing a bit more sweet talking with the better half than I had originally intended.

If you ever get the chance to peer through your friend's Starmax I would be thrilled to hear a first hand report!!

BTW Thanks for the input on the Meade Qazaq.

One more BTW guys, Meade and Celestron have distributor agreements in other countries.  For this reason, most US dealers are prohibited from exporting.  I have done some price checking and found that generally these makers sell for much more overseas.

Example, in the UK we would pay the same number of pounds as you pay dollars so they are about 1.6 times more expensive.  Then in Japan it seems they convert the pound figures to Yen.  Hence the reason why I am so keen to order direct from the USA, and the Orion also fits the bill there as well.

[Qazaq2001]

Archie,
 You are welcome, dude. If you settle on getting a scope from Orion, you will get great customer service. I get eyepieces, filters, and such for my scope from them always because of the great service they provide, you can't go wrong with Orion Telescopes & Binoculars. Q8) 8)
PS, In case you don't have the link, here it is; www.telescope.com. Q8)

[archiebald]

I really am getting more and more impressed by the Orion Starmax 127 based on reviews

Now, all I have to do is add a candlelit dinner and flowers onto the budget and I should be home dry

Some reviews

www.excelsis.com/1.0/entr...ntryid=352
members.tripod.com/irwinc...7mm_eq.htm
www.company7.com/orion/ca...ax127.html (This will be the retailer I choose)
www.cloudynights.com/revi...max127.htm

[skyjim]

Definitely a good idea to grease the wheels - I speak from long experience!

Jim

[WMarkle]

I Purchased A Starmax 127mm 2 months ago.
I love it. The EQ3 is a solid base and works well. It does take a little getting used to. The best part about he EQ3 is the little Polar Alignment tube with all the dials and numbers. This thing is great at impressing friends and neighbors ( I’ll learn to use it for real one of these daze.)
 The Scope is Awesome, There is A hill side 400-450m away. I can clearly see butterflies in the grass, groundhogs and turkey with great clarity . On the second day I had The scope, I spent in the back yard looking around the tree tops watching ants do what they do from 75-100m when I came across a locust. Its body filling the view, the detail was amazing. I could see the lines in its eyes, the veins in its wings. I trained the scope on the humming bird feeder that’s 30-35m. the hummingbirds filled the view. I had to pan up and down to see the whole body. It was great.

Night viewing
I live in a well light area and still I found many of the M objects in and around Sagittarius. (South is my only good view.) The Views are nothing to write home about, but I did see these objects. My 12 year old was impressed as well. The view of the moon was great early on but after it was ¼+ it was just to bright.

I plan to order the premium 24mm – 8mm Zoom eyepiece from Orion in the next few daze. (please no comments to this point, good or bad, unless you own a Starmax 127 and have used this eyepiece in it). I have read enough reviews on eyepieces to be completely confused & frustrated. I’ll let you all know how it works out.