COPENHAGEN

[spacecat27]

Anyone catch this fine PBS dramatization of the 'mystery meeting' between Neils Bohr and Werner Heisenberg in 1941?  
-- Very thought-provoking -- makes one realize things like WWII both accelerated and impeded science- that one evening's discussion may have (fortunately) changed history.... and a haunting little statement at the end:
"When there is no more uncertainty- there is no more knowledge."

I have a distant family connection to that event, too complex to explain here- so I found this production particularly interesting.  Now I think I know why things happened as they did..... not too many years before I was born.

[Remcook]

Sorry, but I don't know the story. Could you tell it in brief? Thanks.

[spacecat27]

Geez- not really a brief story, but I'll try.......
Bohr was probably the world's premier nuclear physicist of his time.... among many things, he's responsible for the view of the atom we were all taught- where electrons orbit the nucleus like planets orbiting a sun (since proved wrong, but still a useful tool in describing the building blocks of matter.)  
Heisenberg was a young grad student when they first met in 1926- and Bohr became his mentor and friend.  Together, they did much to advance knowledge of sub-atomic physics and as often the case- Heisenberg surpassed his old teacher when he became noted for his "Uncertainty Principle"....... hopefully, younger visitors like Jedi Price can better explain the math of all this and it's implications to particle interactions......
But then came World War II-
Bohr was Danish, though half-Jewish- so was confined to house arrest in Copenhagen when Germany occupied Denmark.
Heisenberg was German- and though he never joined the Nazi party or became a Nazi, he remained loyal to Germany since it was his homeland.  Since so many other German physicists fled the country, Heisenberg soon became the top nuclear scientist in Germany.  In 1941 he went to Copenhagen to visit his old mentor.  What took place that evening has been a topic for speculative discussion for many decades.... each man spent the rest of their lives (Bohr died in 1962, Heisenberg in 1976) trying to explain their intentions.  Both men were accutely aware that recent discoveries in nuclear science could lead to the development of atomic weapons.  
So: did Heisenberg come to 'warn' Bohr that Hitler was on the road to a bomb?  Did he come to assure Bohr that he would try to steer Germany away from nuclear weapon development?  Did he come as a German 'agent' to find out if the US or UK were also developing a fission bomb?  
Or did he just come to visit an old friend?

My connection to all this- I had a relative that I met only once- at my father's funeral in 1957.  In later years after his death it came out that he was an OSS (pre-CIA) operative during WWII, and one of his primary assignments was to go undercover behind German lines and tail Heisenberg- find out what he was up to, attend his lectures, generally snoop around- and his orders were to shoot Heisenberg dead if he ever gave the impression that Nazi Germany was working toward an atomic bomb.  My relative never found the need to shoot Heisenberg..... and the rest is.... history.

[Remcook]

Now you mention it...
I think that, not long ago, the letters that these two wrote to eachother were published.

[broomstar]

ahh....just found this post... I read of that "secret meeting" story before, and I guess there must be some serious misunderstandings between them. I respect these two physicists so much that it seems to be very sad to me that they never talk to each other again after that meeting.

Spacecat,
hmmm, did your relative learn some physics from Heisenberg by listening to his lectures? Heisenberg was one of the physicist with strongest physics intuition in the 20th century in my opinion and I respect him very much... And I don't understand why they should kill Heisenberg even if he showed that impression -- they should rather destroy the lab or something rather than kill the great physicist... war ... sigh ...  :-\

[spacecat27]

Hello, Broomstar! Good to see you back- and good to be "back" myself after being mired in work for a month or so.....   Seems Orstio's sorting topics out in the new format has brought this post to the top again.

My relative certainly had interests in physics and science in general- as he had studied at Princeton and the Sorbonne.  He was also a master linguist who spoke quite a number of languages and local dialects perfectly which made it easy for him to operate as a 'spy.'  Strangely enough, he spent most of his life as a professional baseball player!  He was a mysterious and eccentric character in his own right- and at least two books have been written about him.  His name was Morris (Moe) Berg.

I suppose American intelligence thinking at the time was that if Germany had been pursuing nuclear weapons, eliminating the figurehead (Heisenberg) would severely impede or halt their progress.  Fortunately for history, that was not the case.  So the story goes- Moe Berg posed as an elder Swiss graduate student to attend several of Heisenberg's lectures and at least one dinner reception where the great physicist was an honored guest.

Bohr wrote in later years that Heisenberg was a 'gentle fellow, whose work never harmed anyone'.... a claim Bohr could not make about himself since he eventually made it to the US and advised on weapons projects here.  I think Moe Berg recognised this about Heisenberg early on- and fortunately kept his pistol and cyanide capsule in his pocket, never to be used.

[broomstar]

Hi, Spacecat, great to see you back too!
Thanks for your reply. Your relative had an interesting life. I'll try to find some of his stories to read if possible. Has he told you more things about
Heisenberg or other history stories?
I'm glad to read Bohr's nice comment on Heisenberg, but their talk is still a mystery in the haze of history.