dingo1
Member

 Basic theory...sorry I will not post my supporting documentation and data...too lengthy
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1. Nemesis actually exists. It is a rogue brown dwarf approx 3 Jovean masses (sorry for the spelling) It passed the outer edge of our solar system approximately 26 million years ago, and currently is 8.9 lys away travelling at 150 km/s in recession.
2. When Nemesis passed by, it tilted Uranus on it's side. It also disrupted Pluto from it's orbit. It effected the Oort cloud sending comets and asteroids into the inner solar system. Some of this disrupted material impacted on the Earth, and on the Moon.

3. Backtracking Nemesis's path at said speed, I come up with a direct correlation of Nemesis and Bernard Star being at the same general location at the same time.

Ok, now for everyone's comment  
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 Yevaud
Member

 Ha
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Talking to your self, are we?
Hmmm. I thought Barnard's Star was more like 4-5 light years away...interesting theory. Dare I ask how this could be 'Nemesis?' ('Cause inquiring minds have to know!).
--Yev
"When you're Schizophrenic, you're NEVER alone."
"I'm Schizophrenic - and So am I!"  
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fromahzi
Member

 Well,
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If it's truly a rogue, it doesn't qualify for Nemesis. It would be just a passing disaster.
Nemesis needs to recurr at regular intervals to create the periodic mass die-offs.

Except for that, theory sounds good as a cause of the event 65M/yr ago.

F

Please don't bother trying to find her
she's not therrrre.
The Zombies, "She's Not There"
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dingo1
Member

 Calli,
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I could post my supporting data and model on the net, I have a web site that might have enough room on it. But I am reluctant to do so until I can finish more of my research. Please remimber Barnard Star is moving, and at a good clip, The conjunction of Nemisis and Barnard Star, is just a mathimatical computation at this point, the two could be related or not. I have a lot more research to go through to get a better possibility of the possible location in the sky where Nemisis could be located. I do have a search area in mind, I am trying to narrow it down more. I have been doing some mainframe processing, but unfortunately I can not get one on a dedicated bases to further refine the equations.
Yevand,
Most people assume that Nemesis is a repeating phenomenon. If I can find this rogue, it will help bring to light that the probibility of other
rogue masses exist in our general area of space, and that in the course of our orbit around the center of the galaxy, the probibilities of close encounters with them increases dramaticly. I feel that Nemesis is not just one brown dwarf, but instead has been several over the course of time. According to geolocal history the mass extinctions that have occured have accually not been on a regular pattern of 26 million years between major events, even though it seems like it. The geological record shows many gaps to that theory
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dingo1
Member

 PLC questions that help explain my theory??
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I will do what I can. Please understand, I have months of research to do, but I will keep it in mind. What I really hope for is if I can develope the theory, and the numbers keep coming out as they have been, to the point I am able to publish, all I would want would be some dedicated time on one of the large telescopes to see if I can find the rogue. I know what would really help would be to do some plate comparisions when I reach that point. At the calculated speed, and direction, there just might be enough of a shift on a plate to find it. Please understand, that something that small, does not give off it's own light, but might reflect enough star light to be spotted. Only things I am sure of is the mass of the object, and the speed it passed by Uranus to cause it to tilt like it did. It also explains several questions cuased by the pictures of the moons of Uranus. Something fragged the heck out of them, and the only thing I can think of is something massive passed by Uranus, and because of gravitational pull, pulled out some of Uranus's atmosphere into the path of the moons. It kind of explains why they are still in line, and is a possible explination of the rings, and the fact that some of the rings are incomplete and fragmented. I did come up with the following conclusions. If the mass that flew by were much bigger, the moon's orbits would be completely disrupted, and Uranus's orbit would have been majorly changed. If it were much smaller, then the tilt would not have been as dramatic as it is, or to get that kind of tilt would have entitled a collision, of major proportion. And there would still be major traces left of such a collision. When the event happened a lot of speculation has been proposed. A lot of astronomers place the collision a few billion years ago. But the question raised by that is, why are the moons in orbit to such a degree off of the axis of rotation? Would not the rules governing centrifical force slowly redirect the moons onto the axis of rotation??
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yevaud
Member

 A brief thought on that
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Well, if you have some clue as to the particular trajectory of 'Nemesis' - given by the 'fossils' of it's effects, then that'd at least give you a small 'slice' of space to scrutinize. If you can do *that*, simple stellar obect occultation might just reveal it, yes?
--Yev
"So whattaya wanna do tonight, Brain."
"Why take over the world..."
"Ooohhhhh. We're on *that* again, are we?"
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payloadcontroller
Member

  Now, getting time on one of the big scopes isn't something I can wangle for you, I'm afraid. Ain't no breakin' line, and the lines are years long.
However, we might be able to back-door something.
 
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dingo1
Member

 Simple stellar object occulation
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Yevand, thank you!!! I am hoping that I can use stellar occulation might pinpoint exactly the object in question, but it will be very time consuming even for a computer verification of plates. An object that small, and at the speed and distance calculated so far, stellar occulation would more likely be found in an unsual change in variation of the light from a star who's path was crossed. I will have to calculate some numbers to be able to possibly come up with how minute the variation to look for. Thank you for the idea. It gives me a clue to help me locate it. You might ask how I came up with the direction it came from, and this is where Pluto does come into effect. It might not be related, but I am going to assume it is. As I was running the model, coming up with the differnt angles from which it could cause the tilt on Uranus, one of the models showed that the rogue would have passed close enought by Pluto, to disrupt it's orbit from the solar plain, and change it's eliptical orbit as well towards it current orbital path.
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  dingo1
Member

 PLC
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I will not back door something. I know how long the lines are. Before I would ever concider doing a backdoor on something like that, I will need to almost be certain of where it is located. I do have access to a 20" scope here, and if I find enough evidence to justify a larger scope, that would be a good time to publish, and I might be able to bump up on the queue. You know what the review process is going to be like, I will have to have all my little duckies in line, and supporting data to be able to pass pear review  
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payloadcontroller
Member

 no, no, no
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Back dooring isn't cheating or anything. What I mean is, once you have some coordinates to search, we will see if anyone I know is scheduled to do any observing at Kitt Peak or somewhere, and ask for a few plates or CCD frames or something, tagged onto his observing run. As a favor, images to be appropriately credited in the paper.
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david01
Member

 speaking of back dooring...
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dingo1, you said "It also explains several questions caused by the pictures of the moons of Uranus. Something fragged the heck out of them, and the only thing I can think of is something massive passed by Uranus, and because of gravitational pull, pulled out some of Uranus's atmosphere into the path of the moons"
Where, o where, is Butswana when we need a rebuttal?!
 
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david01
Member

 seriously, though
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I think this is a fascinating theory that is worth exploring further.
While I do not have the knowledge or the tools to comment on your theory's validity, questions come to mind that would offer a good testing ground:

Does the orbital information we have about Kuiper-belt objects (other than Pluto and Charon) also fit the theory? What about the Oort cloud? Is it as you would expect if such an object had passed by? And, if effects are seen as far as Uranus, are they also seen further in? Are the orbits of Saturn and the inner planets consistent with the theory?

I regret that I only have questions but no answers.

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yevaud
Member

 And also
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speaking of the Kuiper Belt and whatnot, have you considered looking at earth-crossing objects with long periods? You might want to consider running their orbits back a few tens of thousands of regressions, and see if there's some sort of correlation. Did something perturb these objects into their new long period orbits, and if so, can they be traced back to a single event? Might back up your inference of a particular trajectory...if they match up, that is.
--Yev
"Get a Life!"
William Shatner to all Star Trek fans  
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betelguese
Member

 Very interesting theory Dingo! Just playing Devil's advocate here. I am having a hard time concepualizing how a body could have so much influence on Uranus' rotational axis but not on it's orbit or the orbit of its moons. Most of its 21 moons have circular orbits with the exception of the outer 4. Also, if the object your looking for is one of many that have come through and the object had that much of an effect on Uranus, wouldn't the outer solar system be a much more chaotic place?
How could the gravity of an object be so much stronger than Uranus' that it pulled solid mass (not gases) away from the planet but the orbit of the moons and planet itself remained rather stable?
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 yevaud
Member

 Just a point
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Yes, good points. But it's been, what? 60-odd million years since it's last (theoretical) pass through our solar system. Orbits would've renormalized long since. As well, there could've been much gas pulled off of the various bodies, but this would be unknown to us in any event. These could've been larger sub-jovian gas-giants back then...and we'd have no way to know it at this point in time. Still and all, good, good.
--Yev
"The military: long periods of profound boredom interspersed with moments of sheer terror."  
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fromahzi
Member

 Scope Time
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If you know where you're looking and you're looking for occultation, do you need scope time?
Seems like someone might already have plates covering the area of interest, possibly several someones far enuff apart to make detection even easier than backdoor time.

That makes computer time starting *now* the question.

Just a thought

F

I'm not an astronomer, I'm a writer, Jim.
 
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yevaud
Member

 True
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Come to think of it, several institutes have large collections of plates...Harvard here in Boston, for starters. Carnegie-Mellon for another.
And as the joke goes, "what do I need computer time for? Whaddaya think Undergrads are for?"
--Yev  
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betelguese
Member

 Again let me reiterate that I like the theory, just trying to understand some perceived complications. Also, this might help Dingo formulate and answer to questions he may be asked in the future.
Yev..I thought we were talking on the order of 23 million years (give or take), not 60 million.

I keep thinking how much energy is required to lift a large amount (relative to humans) of matter off of the surface of the earth. The gravity on Uranus is much higher and the matter to be ripped off, in order to make the implied impacts, would need to be very massive indeed. Wouldn't this require a VERY large body to come VERY close to Uranus? Wouldn't this have significantly influenced the orbit of Uranus itself. What about Uranus' atmosphere? If solid matter is flying off, wouldn't huge amounts of gas and dust have been striped away too? Wouldn't the ring system rival Saturns?

On the flipside Dingo, your theory might explain why Uranus has the most moons. A Nemesis sized object would through many chunks towards Uranus.
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 yevaud
Member

 Oops
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"D'oh!"
Yeah, right you are...I gave the total orbital period for Nemesis. Gotta stop posting on the fly from work...
--Yev
"No, our mutants have flippers."
Montgomery Burns  
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betelguese
Member

 s'ok...also Dingo is theorizing multiple rogue Nemisis', not a single orbiting Nemesis. That is, if I understand it correctly.  
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dingo1
Member

 Some possible answers to questions asked
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Many questions were brought up on my theory, questions that do need to be addressed it help with the development. I will do my best to answer them in order. Please keep the questions coming.
 
David01: You brought up the point of the orbital information of the Kuiper belt. I have given some thought on this, and have done some coding to some of the objects into the model, but I need more orbital data on the objects found so far, and plug them into my model. If you can provide me a link, to where I can access some of this data, I would appreciate this. I do not have unlimited time to work on this theory 100% no matter if I wanted to or not. I wish I could, but things like work do come into play. But so far what data I have used in the model has helped me come to the conclusions I have so far. More data I can bring into the picture, a clearer understanding of what did occur. Please understand, that this model is not static, but has been changing as more information and data is applied. And unlike a lot of people, I do not pick and choose what hard data I use to support my theory, I have been modifying the theory instead.
The effects on the Kuiper belt objects mainly depends on where they were during the passing. Most were not effected, but some were in accordance with the model. Same with the Oort cloud, but to a lesser extent, due to the trajectory of the object. If we had more orbital data on the Oort cloud, it would help, but we have a lot to learn about it.
Yevaud: You asked the question on orbital effects on the inner planets, if any. To answer that question is easy. For the most part the answer is no. From my working model, Nemesis passed through the outer part of the solar system, between the orbit's of Saturan and Jupiter, in it's closest approch to our sun.
It was not a straight line crossing, but on a slight curve due to the gravitation influence of our sun. It's trajectory was also modified from it's path with it's close encounter with Uranus.
Beleguese: You asked a very good question. Why were the moon's of Uranus orbits not disrupted. That was one of the most surprising results I came across. When the close encounter occured, some of the atmospear of Uranus was also pulled out a great deal along the path of the object crossing. This atmospearic bulge slammed into the moons of Uranus, and brought them back into orbital alinement when it gravitaionally collapsed back onto the surface of Uranus. This is the tidal effect of the passing. The tital effect would have occured in the direction of the passing, outside of the effect of the planet's tilt being dramaticly changed. The rings could be the result of the atmospeare oscollating back to stability. Please understand that the atmospear of Uranus would have been dramaticly expanded due to the heat caused by the disruption, but would have cooled off rapidly due to it's distance from the sun. As it cooled the rings would have formed along it's current rotation, not along the lines of the tital effect.
The planetary orbit of Uranus would not have been changed other than slightly. Due to Uranus's mass. Now when the rogue passed by Pluto, something did occur. Because of Pluto's small mass, it was pulled into a new orbit. Now a question has just come to me, that will seem a bit radical. When Pluto was pulled into the new orbit, is it possible that Pluto split into 2??? Forming Charion in the process??
As for when this occured, the first date possible is 26 million years ago. It could have happened even further back. I have only gone back 43 million years so far, and it takes a lot of time to process the orbital data and computations. Even on a old mainframe.
Yevaud. In regards to access of the photographic plates, I do have some access. Exspecially from Carneigie-Mellon University. I work about a mile from there. Yes I do live in Pittsburgh. My access is limited, for I am not a undergraduate there, but just a part time student. In order to compare the area in question, I do have to scan the plates. It takes lots of time, and I do not have prioity as the undergrad's and grad students do on the optical scanning equipment.
PLC: If this theory ever reaches the point that I can give a narrow slice of the sky to look, then at that time it might be worth piggybacking on one of your collegues time, with their permission of course. But I do not yet have it narrowed down far enought to justify the use.
To all who have asked questions, Please keep it up!!!!!!    
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yevaud
Member

 Dingo
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Yeppers. Except I was referring to the outer planets, not the inner system. For those who weren't following the debate:
If a massive object were to have passed through the solar system at some remote time during the past, we might be able to determine it's existance by the effects it left. The screwy nature of the outer gas giants orbits and inclination, for example.
Looking at the solar system as a flattish disk, should "nemesis" have passed through, it would leave a trail of effects; like taking a hot poker and laying it flat onto a record, for example.
Not only is this trail of evidence valuable in it's own right, it also provides a trajectory in / out of the solar system. Backtrack this and, taking into account the time passed, this - theoretically - should lead directly to the perturbing body.
Which, as Dingo points out, is probably a non - emmitting body. Therefore, how to locate this?
Occultation of stellar bodies, that's how. By use of previously taken photographic and CCD plates, one can compare an identical region of space over time and catch the body passing between us and the stellar body.
Dingo: I have some contacts (still) within the Astronomy community up here. Let me know if you need some help gaining access to archival material. I'll do what I can.
--Yev
"Twinkle, twinkle little star...
I don't wonder what you are...
for by spectroscopic ken...
I know you are hydrogen."
Ian D. Bush, Poet, 1800's  
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dingo1
Member

 Thank you Calli
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Thank you Calli  I will start adding the information into the model. It will take me a while  But the more data I have in the model, the more accurate the model will be. I know whith the addition of the data your provided is going to slow down the computation time, but I would rather have the data in there, than to have an inaccurate model. Should be interesting what I come up with, and how it is going to effect my theory        
Yevaud: Thank you. If I need access to the material I will get ahold of you on that. So far the model I have shows only Uranus and Pluto as having any major effects. Calli's information is going to be of great help. I am going to have to do some heavy computations with them, because having to include gravitational changed in orbits due to close incounters with planets in the past of the NEO's and such is going to be a pain, but nessisary. There will be a margin of error, nothing I can do about that, because over time, the planets would have absorbed a lot of the debree, and there currently is no way to predict the orbits of those objects, or the colisions with other small objects. All I can do is my best
   
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yevaud
Member

 Yeah
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Three (or more!) body problems are a bear, aren't they?
--Yev
Two men are in the forest, hiking. They stumble onto a sleeping bear which, naturally, is kind of cranky at being woken. One man immediately begins to put on a pair of sneakers.
"That won't help outrun the bear," one observes.
"I don't have to outrun the bear," the other says, lacing up the sneakers, "I just have to outrun YOU."  
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dingo1
Member

 Very much a bear
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It is a huge problem, but it is do-able. It takes a lot of number crunching, and a lot of processing time to do so  
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yevaud
Member

 Too true
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Of course, one might assume that the pertubative event might be at a tangent to the outer system (considering the skewed orbits of these bodies) - giving some sort of baseline for the event itself...by that meaning that most other perturbations would be within the plane of the solar system, but the "nemesis" event not neccessarily so. So, you look at orbital changes and determine if the event came from within or without the system (even after all this time). Not to mention any relationship between the various bodies (similar orbital anomolies)...
--Yev
"I hold it true that pure thought can grasp reality, as the ancients dreamed..."
Albert Einstein  
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payloadcontroller
Member

 let me know
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when I can help, dingy.
Btw, blink comparators might help locate an object with a high parallax, too. I would expect this thingie to have such a parallax.

What angle of entry are you looking at? I would kind of expect something out of the ecliptic plane...

FWIW, the cartoon yale inserted had the mailing address from my hometown in it. That used to be Acme Boot's HQ. My grandma was one of their top fancy-stitchers.  
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dingo1
Member

 External factors
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Yevaud: The only explination I have been able to come up with for the knocking of Uranus on it's side is an external intrusion into the solar system at enough speed for the intruder to escape back into the intersteller media. There has been speculation that the cause of Uranus being on it's side was caused by a planet size collision in it's early history. Big arguement against it is the moon's of Uranus are not in orbit around it's rotational axis. Otherwise over the billions of years, the moons would have abit slowly, have migrated to that axis. So the arguement I have is that the tilting of Uranus is a (in galatic terms) recent event.
As for the collision arguement itself, their is a major problem. A collision at the speed nessisary to tilt the planet at the angle it is, would have left a debrie field that would have been spotted by now, and to my knowledge, there is no debrie field. Hince the conclusion of a close encounter.
According the the calculations I have come up with so far, the size of the passing body would need to be very close to 3 Jovien units. Anything smaller than 2.5 Jovien units would have needed to collide to cause the same tilt. If that kind of collision occured, there would be be debrie again. Anything larger than 3.25 Jovien units would have torn the moons away from Uranus, or majorly disrupted of the moons orbits, and there is no evidence at this time showing that.
Now with the theory I have proposed, there would have been some atmosphere pulled from both Uranus and the rogue, and at high temperature. This would have heated the moons and caused geological changes. There is evidence of something like that having happened in their past.
Now the disruption of Pluto can or can not be related. From the model I have ran, their is a possibility of that disruption due to the nessisary angle of the close encounter with Uranus. The angle of that encounter has the rogue passing at between 7 and 18 degrees in relation with the solar plain. Depending on the angle of the rogue, Pluto's orbit would have been disrupted before the encounter, if at around 18 degree's or if it is after the encounter, Uranus would have changed the path of the rogue from 7 towards 18 degrees (sling shot effect) Hince the problem in determining the point it would currently be. Is Pluto a factor or not?? If so, was it before or after the encounter with Uranus. Did "Nemesis" pass Uranus inbound or outbound?? (from the model it comes up with outbound) Now if it were inbound, I have ran into a few interesting senerio's. One it would have passed close enough to the asteroid belts, which might explain the unusual paths of some of the NEO's. If that is the case, Nemesis would not have escaped the solar system, but instead would have collided with the sun, and have been absorbed, but there would have been a massive flaring which could have contributed to the mass extintion on Earth by radiation overloading of the Ozone layer, weakening the lifeforms currently on the planet to the point where when a major collision with an astoriod would have caused the mass extintions. But that would have happened if the "Nemesis" rogue went by 65 million years ago. If that did happen, then we are talking about the probibility of multiple encounters with rogue brown dwarfs over the course of the solar systems life time. As I place the Uranus encounter as outbound around 26 million years ago according to my model I am working with.  
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yevaud
Member

 Mmmm...
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I see. It couldn't have been a direct impact...something that size would absolutely exceed the binding energy of the impacted body and smashed it to pieces.
Fascinating thread. Keep it up!
--Yev
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 dingo1
Member

 PLC
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Angle from the solar plane is 7 to 18 degree's +/- 5 degree's due to slingshot effect from Uranus. Solar sling shot would be up to +/- 1 degree
 
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yevaud
Member

 A quick aside
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There's a lot of controversy over Pluto and it's odd orbit...question: since it bears a lot of similarities to Oort cloud objects, have you considered Pluto might have been perturbed from there during the encounter?
Just a passing thought...
--Yev
 
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payloadcontroller
Member

 good
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wanted to make sure you were thinking in 3D. Sometimes a tendency even among pro astronomers to forget to.
It sounds very good. Keep me posted, and I will help when/where I can.
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dingo1
Member

 Yevaud
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I have not concidered that point about Pluto, so I will have to give it some thought. It does make sense. I will have to get back to you on what I come up with on that. It would be very interesting to see what the Pluto probe will find if they ever get it built and launched
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yevaud
Member

 And
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From the BBC, back when: "...Since 1992, when astronomers discovered the first Kuiper Belt object, they have found hundreds of chunks of rock and ice beyond Neptune, including about 70 that share orbits similar to Pluto's."
Well. Postulating that Pluto is a capture due to Nemesis, here's another 70 objects whose orbits can be analyzed...
Your life has just gotten more complicated, mah' fren'
--Yev  
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payloadcontroller
Member

 and don't worry about computation
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I remember my friend the particle physicist back in grad school. The PPs had an entire VAX devoted to their modeling, and he used to set up a run on Friday afternoon, to be ready when he got back on Monday, sometime...
Dese tings take a loooooooong time ta run.
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 yevaud
Member

 Although
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If you got access to a fairly capable Sparc running SunOs...
--Yev
"Computers are like children. You pamper them, baby them, hold their hands...
and they STILL act out on you."
Unattributed
"I don't know where the file is. YOU tell ME. YOU'RE the computer..."
TV Commercial  
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dingo1
Member

 Yevaud
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Accually you just made life a little bit easier. You just clarified something that accually does make my theory a bit stronger.
This will be radical, but makes a lot of sense.
Pluto and Charion are not seperate entities, but instead two pieces of the same planet ripped apart during a passing of a rogue object (Nemesis). Yevaud, you pointed out that some of the Kuiper Belt objects are in the same general orbit as Pluto....I had over looked that fact. couldn't they be pieces of the debrie from Pluto being ripped apart??? Due to the release of energy from the breakup, Pluto and Charion would have quickly reformed into seperate for the most part round bodies in orbit around each other. due to Pluto being the more massive body, the orbits would have Charion more likely to end up in orbit around Pluto, but this would explain the slight wobble in Pluto's orbit, that people have been contributing to another planet that has not been discovered causing the wobble.
I feel that this give a bit more evidence to the statement that Nemesis is not a brown dwarf in orbit around our sun, but instead a rogue that passed through the solar system millions of years ago.
Thank you Yevaud for your contribution to this point!!!    

Accually I have access to 4 HP 8565e2 Mainframe computers....A bit slow at a combined processing speed of 70 mips

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yevaud
Member

 No problem
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Well, sure, that's a possibility. Also, they could be just seperate (but of similar composition) bodies that were just swept along by the gravitational pull of Nemesis passing by...and then fell into their *moderately* stable orbits. The 70-odd objects mentioned could (to repeat an earlier point), if their orbits were regressed many cycles, show a common "path" through the Kuiper belt...a sort of "trail of mayhem."
Glad to be of help. It's why a lot of us are here...
--Yev  
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payloadcontroller
Member

 OR --
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they could be outer satellites of Uranus that got drug along for the ride...
I love to brainstorm, then pick the ideas to death.  
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yevaud
Member

 Absolutely!
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Peer review, ain't it wunnerful?!
Concept: Peer Review. Definition - Propose a theory, and then try to dis-prove it as fast as possible!
However, Dingo has some good points. The concept has a certain...flow to it. Horrosho!
Now THIS thread is how space.com (only an opinion) should run...
--Yev
"The inexhaustability of the electron"
V.I. Lenin  
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dingo1
Member

 PLC
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Ohhhhhhhh now there goes my evening. I had not even thought about that possibility. It might be one of the reason's why Uranus has so many moons. I am going to have to do some major computations, and that is going to take some time!!!!
   

Well it will keep me busy for the next few days. At least we have cloudy skys for the next few days
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 calliarcale
Member

 *chuckles*
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You go, dingo1!
I've been having a wonderful time reading all the stuff that people are discussing here. This is absolutely great! We're seeing the advancement of human thought, and it's abso-friggin-lutely marvellous!
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betelguese
Member

 Major computations
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That's OK Dingo1, you have a 4 horse power computer (4 HP), should be no problem. What about distributed computing? I'll be happy to run a Dingo/Nemesis screensaver 24/7  
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payloadcontroller
Member

 WOOOOOO-HAAAAAAAA!!!!!
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I LOVE THIS STUFF!!!!!!!
       
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 dingo1
Member

 Distributed computing
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Beleguese. Sorry these computers are not on any distributed computing network. Wish they were. They are mainframes that were formerly used to handle banking processing back in the 80's. My former boss kept them for his own research when the department I was in charge of converted over to distributed networking using Client server technology only. He is gracefully letting me have access to them on a limited bases (when he is not busy doing serious computations of his own)  
For those who do not know what MIPS are....it translates to Million Instructions Per Second....old mainframe term So the processing speed for the 4 mainframe computers is 70 million instructions per second. A Cray 7 would be nice, where I could do a couple of billion transactions per second, but I do not have that kind of access
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 space_junkie
Member

 since we're throwing out ideas...
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How bout this one.
Your Brown Dwarf swept through the solar system, collided with a planet (better known today as the aseroid belt), dragging debris into the outer solar system (debris=moons of Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune). Pluto could have been a larger chunk dragged further out. Additional collisions in the chaos surrounding this event could have directed debris into the inner solar system creating Earth's "Armageddon Event".


Yeah, thats the ticket. (said like what's his name on Saturday Night Live)
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 yevaud
Member

 Yeah
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That *would* provide some explanation as to why those Gas Giant's moons are all so wildly different.
You know, another thought, Dingo: there would've been a lot of odd gravitational stress (natch!) placed on those bodies...I wonder if any of 'em still show, say, weird torsional effects, strange tectonics (such as it were) and whatnot...
--Yev
"Ah well...It's just a little theory of mine."
John Archibald Wheeler
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 calliarcale
Member

 strange tectonics
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Now *there's* a thought. Ever seen a picture of Miranda? It looks like it was blasted apart and then put back together all wrong. Might that have been influenced by the passage of Nemesis?
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dingo1
Member

 Asteroid Belt.
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Good question. The event you just described would have needed to take place during the early formation of the solar system. The major reason that a planet did not completely form in the asteroid belt was not caused by it being broken up by a rogue brown dwarf, but said thing could have happened, but by the gravitational pull of Jupiter itself. The solar system has been for the most part somewhat stable over the last billion years or so, but something has disrupted it several times over the period. It is not a recurring pattern as some people think, but random encounters. What I have proposed here is a theory of mine in regards to one of those random encounters, and it's effect on our solar system. If it can be born out, then some rethinking on the part of the exstablished astronomy community. It is called the advancement of science, and I hope to make a little contribution to it  Every idea is welcome  
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yevaud
Member

 Yep
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Exactly my point. I used to have some Planetary Scientist friends, and when those pix from the fly-by began to appear, they were freaked! Twisted, contorted, tortured terrain. They were literally staring at the images, saying "what the f***."
This is looking promising!
--Yev
"Whattaya mean, 'Grandma's on the roof?'"  
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dingo1
Member

 Calli,
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It might, exspecially if PLC's idea about Pluto possibly being one of Uranus's former moons. Understand that ripping apart something that big would not have been a quiet event, but a bit explosive (think very huge explosion) sending reminents all over the solar system. Most of the debrie would have been cleaned out of the solar system by now, but not all of it. I have a lot of computations to do, and see if that is a possibility. I feel like this theory of mine is going to be revised several times....But that is what good science is all about    
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payloadcontroller
Member

 DUCK!!!!!
   



There it went again.....
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 space_junkie
Member

 what about....
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Venus and Earth. Could it have a highly elliptical orbit that takes it to the orbit of Venus? After all something had to have caused Venus to be flipped 180 degrees (thus the retrograde rotation). This would also mean that it crosses Earth's orbit (maybe the collision that created the Moon?) It could answer alot of questions if this were true.
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payloadcontroller
Member

 keep in mind
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that dingy is working with the theory of multiple objects here. No one flyby has to do everything.
Also keep in mind that this could very well, if it turns out to be semiperiodic, prove the hypothesis that the extinction events, etc. are due to passage thru spiral arms in the galaxy, which is one of the potential explanations proposed. This sounds to me very much like a rogue interloper trundling thru on nearly each SA pass...

FWIW, said events have been a little pet interest of mine.

BTW, I surely hope certain unmentioned and unmentionable people don't show up in this forum. Talk about sounding just a bit like the V.V. of V...
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 space_junkie
Member

 that was kinda my point
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If this object has a period on the order of 20 million years or so and it is highly elliptical,then it could have caused many events throughout the history of the solar system. In 4 billion years it would have crossed the orbits of many of the planets 200 times. If it didn't directly cause the problems seen on some of the planets, then it could, at least have caused them indirectly (ie. with associated debris, orbiting moons of its own etc.)  
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apollo2791
Member

 WOW
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I have learned so much by reading this thread! Thanks! (now let's just hope no one comes and spoils it)  
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mgallik
Member

 "You know, another thought, Dingo: there would've been a lot of odd gravitational stress (natch!) placed on those bodies...I wonder if any of 'em still show, say, weird torsional effects, strange tectonics (such as it were) and whatnot...
--Yev"
Sounds a lot like Eros433 Yevaud. And we have pictures.




To return to the theory of an impact turning Uranus
on its side and the subsequent debris field.

Might Nemisis have had a few satelites of its own
and could they have had a part in sweeping up the
evidence?

Perhaps one of them may have been the impactor itself.
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 dingo1
Member

 More possible answers to questions asked
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Space Junkie: The theory I am working on is definitely multiple encounters with rogue objects, so the possibility you have mentioned about Venus having been struck is a possibility.
Proving it is going to be very difficult to say the least. Venus is an enigma in it's self. With it's high temperature and pressure, finding surface features that show impact signs is highly unlikely. There has been a theory proposed in regards to Venus, That it's surface periodicly undergo's a mass liquidfication, where it's contenintal plates float on an ocean of lava. Also in accordance to that theory, the last time it took place (the last liquidfication) was approx 5 million years ago. That possible event could have been triggered by a large object impact. Possible a large asteroid. I do not know for sure, if we could get a probe to land on the surface, and survive long enough to take a sample and lift off the planet, we might be able to determain if that did occur by looking for Iiridius isotopes (sorry for my spelling) simillarly found here on Earth in the geological layers from 65 million years ago.
Please understand that my theory is multiple rogues, and they do not have to me large one's like the one I have proposed that passed by Uranus. They can also be small ones as well. There is a lot of debrie in the interstellar media, mostly gas, but there easily can be objects that can cause massive distruction as they pass through a solar system.
Mgallik: In regards to your question about the rogue having it's own moon's and one of it's moons is what struck Uranus itself and causing the tilt. That is a plasible arguement. For then the flyby would not have to be as close as what I have so far calculated. One thing that you have to take into account is that there would still have been a sling shot effect, but not as pronounced. Uranus does wobble slightly in it's orbit around the sun. A bit more than the gravitation effects of it's moons can account for. I can speculate on the cause, and people will argue with me, and that is the core of Uranus is out of balance due to it's composition of the core is not for the most part uniform, but instead of 2 or more different compositions crushed together. It might explain why the magnetic field on Uranus is 60 degree's off center.
I have started setting up the modified model last night, and it will take a while to add all of the variables so far suggested in this thread, so do not expect overnight results
PLC: You suggested that Pluto was formally a moon of Uranus dragged out of it's orbit. I am including that possiblilty in the model, but I am also now going to add another possiblity as a result of Mgallik suggestion that the rogue has it's own set of satalites. I think it is a possibility the Pluto might have been one of it's satalites instead   that was stripped from the rogue due to tidal effects   You know me, I will not fall into the mindset trap of narrowmindedness, and will look at all possibilites. I do not think that the rogue flew through our solar system unscathed!!!.
Calli: The moon Miranda you brought up is an enigma in itself. It is very possible that it is the result of a collision from debrie as a result of an encounter with one of the rogues that possibly crossed through our solar system.    
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space_junkie
Member

 pluto
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Isn't it just as possible that Pluto is a moon of Nemesis that was stripped off by collision or gravity of a nearby planet or Sun or both.
This model of yours is getting really complicated.

dingo, I don't know how antequated your equipment is, but you may be better off using your home computer. I have done multibody analyses using Excel if you can believe it. It works pretty well, you can plot the results any way you want and computational time is not as bad when you have a fast computer.
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dingo1
Member

 Space Junkie
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It is possible, but if it were stripped, it would have to be from one of the outer planets. This is due to Pluto's so far known composition (primaily ice). If it were from an inner planet, the Ice would have boiled away completely. Pluto's gravitational pull can not support much of an atmospere. In the outer reaches where it is currently, the ambiant temperature is so low that the gas instead of boiling away, would have condensed back onto Pluto after the encounter (with some loss of mass) To picture what it would be like, picture a comet in your head, and what happens to the corona when it reaches the outer reaches on it's trip, and the corona instead of still pouring out gas and dust, congelles back onto itself.
Now as to whci planet it could have been stripped from. Most likely canidate is Uranus. There is enough evidence to support the encounter (massive tilt, magnetic fields shifted also) Also keep in mind the orbital ballistics. If you draw a bead from Uranus, based on it's tilt, and increase the velosity up to Pluto's nominal speed, you will be able to generate an orbit that for the most part matches Pluto's current orbit. There is only one point in Uranus's orbit that allows for it, and if you add in Pluto's orbit, there is a pattern that occurs roughly every 29 million years where the conditions would be exactly right for such an event. The next time they would be in the right position is not for another 3 million years  
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yevaud
Member

 Another thought
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Another thing that's odd is the varied composition of the bodies we're talking about here (discounting Uranus). Pluto and the 70-odd objects in the Kuiper belt I'd mentioned yesterday are of mostly icy composition, while the various moons and planetisimals are of rocky composition.
The question is, of all of these, which were "dragged along" from the Kuiper belt and which are moons and moonlets. I wonder if there may have even been some re-shuffling, such as some of the moons of Jupiter and/or Saturn may have begun as either moons of Uranus (and were "moved" in the wake of Nemesis), and also if any of these are captures (originating somewhere outsystem).
Also: How about Saturn's rings...how old are they? One almost wonders if there may either have been a few moonlets of icy composition there that were smashed by Nemesis' passage, OR if the rings are largely captured pulverized material from Nemesis' passage.
--Yev
"First came Amoeba. Then came deviant Amoeba.
And THEN came Total Quality Management."
Theory of evolution, Scott Adams  
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dingo1
Member

 Yevaud
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Anything would be possible, exspecially with the small moonlettes in orbit on the various planets, but current evidence does not show any with one or two exceptions. Those exceptions (if we leave Uranus out of the question) are a few of the outer moonlettes around Saturn, which could have been captured, as their orbits are off of Saturn's plane. As to the ring system on Saturn,and the other gas giants, they could be captured debrie from the encounter, I picture it kind of like the accreasion disk of a black hole, but on a much smaller scale. what would be facinating would be if we could send up returnable probes to all of the outer planets, and capture some of the material from the rings, moonletts, and planets (exspecially Pluto), the Kuiper ring objects and the Oort cloud, and do comparisons. If my theory is correct, and the encounter's happened, exspecially with Pluto possibly having been dragged into it's current orbit, and Charion possibly being a large fragment of Pluto (similarly to what has been proposed with Earth and it's moon). A chemical comparison would help prove or disprove my theory, because the chemical composition would be nearly identical.
The theory that the our moon use to be a part of the Earth back in the primortial days 4.5 billion years ago, it that the chemical makeup of the moon rocks, and earth rocks of the same age, are nearly identical, giving support to that theory.
Someone once asked me a long time ago to speculate on that. The moon is a lot lower in nickle/iron in comparison to the Earth, but it is consistant with the average found within the Earth's crust and Mantle. Earth is more abundant in those two elements, but Earth also has a nickle/iron core, and is constantly (in geological terms) adding to the mantle and crust those elements as a result of active volcunism, and plate teutonics. I hope that helps answers some of your questions in regards to my theory    
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criscosoft
Member

 Number crunching...
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It's too bad people such as yourself who need raw computing power don't have access to a distributed computing net, such as the one SETI uses to analyze radio telescope data. It's such an elegant solution for "Average Joe" (or Jane) analytical work...  
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halfgael
Member

 Well...
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goddamnit.
While I've been posting in the brain-dead threads, you guys having been talkin' the good stuff here. The 'Hey, Yale, from PLC' told me to mind my own business.

Now, I know better.
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 dingo1
Member

 Seti and computers
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I know what Seti is doing....yes I have there program running in the background on my PC here. What Seti is doing, is statistical analyisis, and looking for patterns. That can be done well on a PC system. What I am doing is mathimatical computations, of somewhat vast amounts, but on one where each change has to be calculated in regards to the rest of the model. Unfortunately, this has to be done on a single computer  hense the mainframe.
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aetius
Member

 BTW...I have been fascinated by the Sun's 7th planet ever since one of the Voyagers went there back in 1986 (Damn it! Georgium Sidus was such a COOL name! Yeah, yeah...mythology, blah blah blah...I know all about it. Still, who the hell names a whole planet after "Your Anus"?). I always thought that its major satellites revolved around the planet at roughly the same orbital inclination as Uranus' axial tilt. How much is the difference between the two? Thanks!
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anupriya
Member

 This is a great thread y’all. I was just thinking this might explain why Oort cloud is stretched out on one side. That might be the place where the Nemis might have been the closest! And the craters on every planet(and moons) in out solar system. The Oort cloud is primarily made of water and minerals, that would explain how water got on all the planets, but some couldn’t hold on to it (isn’t there a theory that earth didn’t have as much water to start with?).  
Just a thought!
Good luck,
Anupriya  
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dingo1
Member

 Initial results
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I have done some preliminary processing, and so far have gotten promising results. Also have some unusual results that need to be looked into, so as to further refine my model. One can not discount unusual results, like a lot of people do, but to look at the cause. There are a lot of unknowns I am dealing with. Question for those who are following this thread. Is there anyone who knows of any evidence of a small cloud of semi-obscurring material in the general solar area around 1.2 light years away???  
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payloadcontroller
Member

 Huh...
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That rings a bell, ding-a-lingy, but I've been so busy lately with personal sitch that I couldn't tell you my own name hardly, let alone pin down something like that.
-PLC
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 dingo1
Member

 Updated results
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So far so good on the model. I have gone back 100 million years, and have 2 possible encounter senarios. Marginal result at 23, 582,713 years ago. Best result at this point is 65, 149,931 years ago. Secondary results show shotgun like pattern of debree heading towards the inner solar system. Earth is in outer edge of spread
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fromahzi
Member

 rogue's moons
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What have I missed? It seems unlikely (to me)that a rogue star/gas giant would have moons following it around.
Just based on a mental picture, it seems like any moons would have been left behind or ripped out of orbit many passes ago. And, it also seems unlikely that it would pick up significant moons (or anything larger than debris) on a pass thru - more likely it would deorbit existing moons sending them on a joy ride.

F

See, no expertice in anything at all anymore
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dingo1
Member

 Fromahzi
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There you are not informed. A rogue star or planet could easily have moons around it. Understand a rogue is something that is not moving along the normal galactic plane, but instead it is following a different path than normal. Also understand that our solar system is also moving around the galaxy but in it's path along the galaxtic plane. Every star is not nessisarily moving at the same speed. Close encounters and collisions happen all of the time  
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mons
Member

 Nemesis and Moons
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At the rate Nemesis is traveling, could it pick up moons? I'm sure it's gravity is overwhelming but is it strong enough to rip moons away and carry it along? I would think, even if it does, it would suck the moon right into itself. I'm wicked guessing here.
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dingo1
Member

 Mons, and a some more info to contemplate
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Yes and Yes. Yes it's gravity is strong enough to strip moons from other planets. Some of them would be captured or sucked in, others could be dragged into new orbits. It really depends on how gravitationally massive the moon who is being effected's original planet is, and how close Nemisis passed by. In either case, there will be massive damage to the moon, by gravitational tug-a-war, and also by tidel effects. In the theory I posted orginally and the modifications I have made to it as the result of all the discussion, the model so far shows some of the effects. One thing I have learned new from all of this is the effects it had on the planet Uranus, and it's moon system. It passed close enough to really cause massive changes. From the model so far, when Nemisis passed, it knocked Uranus over on it's side. It dragged the moons of Uranus on to it's path (something new people). Shattered a few of the moons, ripped one completely away from Uranus, adding enough delta V to place it in a new orbit, almost capturing it, but not quite, for it did escape out of Nemisis gravity well (Pluto). Due to the tug-awar, it split Pluto into 2 major pieces( Pluto and Charon) a string of debree (Kepler objects) and upset the Oort cloud some (The Oort cloud budge). Now there is a possibility that a second moon was ripped from Uranus, but on an angular course, that was captured by Neptune (Triton) the model has not shown it so far, but I am keeping an eye on it. There were major fragments that were whipped through the solar system which could account for at least a few million years of major impacts occurring, including some on Earth, and Also Mars. ( Mars shows a MAJOR impact in it's past).
Now people will question me on why Uranus's moons for the most part do not show as much ecliptical orbits as you would expect from such an event. The answer for that is time. From the gravitational exertion of Uranus, the orbits would stableize into a reasonable circular paths. I have not at this point modelled and caluclated how long that has taken, but from rough calculations, it would have taken appox 25 millin years. Give me time. I hope this has answered your question. Please keep the questions coming. the theory is starting to flesh out, and the model seems to reflect that  
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dingo1
Member

 Another Update
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Have gone back another 26,000,000 million years. Sorry if it is not as far as some of you were hoping. My mainframe time was very limited for the week. Nothing new to report  
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dingo1
Member

 Newest Update
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I have gone back to 210,000,000 million years now.
Results are still about the same. Just 2 more encounter possibilites.  
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dingo1
Member

 Interesting developement
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Weekly update time... have now gone back 275,000,000 yea

Be careful with what you ask.  The amount of data so far generated is a bit over 7 gigabites

PLC, A summury chart or to is a most definite.  Wait till I have to print out all of it.  It is mostly telementry data.  I figure according to my initial calculations to generate roughly 100 gig of telemetary data.  And that is raw data.  And only for the events that fall within the parameters.  Once I have completed the initial runs, I am working on getting a program that I can read the data into and generate a graphical display that will show a visual summury of the data.  That should bring things down to a usual size.  That is why I say it is easier to visualize the encounters than it is to explain.  And that is only if the calculation formulas will pass scruteny.  I do not need to do all this work, then have someone point out an error in the formulas rendering it useless.  I do figure it will be a few years of hard work to be ready for presentation.  I am missing things, I have that feeling I have missed something.  Once I can figure that out, then it will be ready for publication.  Hmmm I am thinking about approching a couple of grad students to see if they would like to contribute to the research and add their input and work, and maybe all of us can generate a joint paper, and it might help them earn their doctorates.  I do not need the recognision, I just enjoy the work.

Biggest help of course will be questions...Lots of them...the more the merrier.  I can not look and find possible problems and answers if I do not know what questions need addressing

Orstio,
No, I have not addressed that issue yet, but I can give you the most current answer to that question.  Take in mind that the creation of the moon was during the formation of our solar system.  From scientific evidence from samples brought back during the Apollo missions, it was determined that the composition of both the Earth and the Moon are basicly the same.  The age of the oldest rocks from the moon is 4.5 billion years old.  From current models accepted by the astronomy community, a large planetoid struck the Earth, near that time, before our planet was completely conjelled, causing the Earth to split into two primary parts.  The Earth and the moon.  The moon is very slowly receeding from the Earth, at a annual distance of a few millimeters.  
As for the possibility of rogue encounters at that time, very likely, as were were in an area of new star development at that time.  Most of the rogues were problibly created during this star formation cycle.

Excellent questions Blass.  I will answer them in order you have asked.  The first question you asked was the possibility of a large planet associated with our solar system who's orbit is so elongated due to an event as described within my theory, peing a long term periodic.  My best answer to that question is no.  Taking into account the size of our star, being a yellow dwarf, it's gravitational influance is not strong enough to maintain a planet with such a long periodic orbit.  The planet in order to have such a period, would have the initial speed at it's closest approch of the sun would be higher than the escape velosity of our solar system.  If the mass of our sun were 2.6 times larger, then it would be a remote possibility.
As for your second question, it is very mathimaticly improbible, for the speed of the other sun in question would be have to be exact, and within a 5 light year radius of our star.  There is no evidence what so ever of such a star in our immediate vacinity.  Keep up the questions.